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Talk:Elmo Variants
Elmo Through the Years I think it's time for us to make an Elmo Through the Years page. Elmo's look has changed a lot over the years, so I say let's make that happen! User:Antsamthompson9. :I don't think it's very necessary. His changes haven't been as distinct as Bert or Hoots or Big Bird. The extent of it would basically be the puppet getting slightly larger with fuzzy/less-fuzzy fur. - Oscarfan 01:07, January 10, 2012 (UTC) ::So? We have a page for Scooter and he's had very little change. User:Antsamthompson9. :::We've deleted Elmo Through the Years pages more than once because it didn't meet our guidelines. Here's an example from the text: "The original Elmo as seen in the song "We're All Monsters".... 1985-1992, Around this time, Elmo began to establish himself more as a main character of Sesame Street. He has shaggy red fur all over himself and his pupils and nose both grow a little bit. 1992-1997 Elmo has now lost the shagginess of his red fur and his orange nose shrink a little bit. 1997-present. Elmo once again grew his shaggier red fur, closely akin to the 1985-1992 version." :::No major changes, we don't cover the character becoming more important, and the stuff about "shagginess" is both minor and seemed rather subjective (the pictures didn't suggest anything). If you want to do a test version, feel free to do so in your user space, but since you mentioned Scooter Through the Years, really it would have to be at least as interesting as that, visually and in terms of detailed description and analysis, *and* the changes have to be ones that, when viewed along with the text, cause the reader to go "Oh yeah, I see that." A lot of effort and study went into the Scooter page. So far, we haven't had the same efforts put towards Elmo, and the fact that his puppet has been more consistent through the years, in part due to his major presence, is another factor. Our rule is that the character has to be major (which does apply to Elmo) and that the *changes* have to be major or significant enough to be detailed to make an interesting page. If it's info that can just be stated on the character's page, or indeed already is there, then there's no need for a solo page. We've merged pages before for that reason (like Gobo Fraggle). It doesn't mean we don't love Elmo (this page makes that obvious). It's just the standard question of whether the page is decent or whether the info can be covered elsewhere. To date, nobody has managed a decent "Elmo Through the Years" which passed our guidelines and criteria, but feel free to give it a shot as a test page first (just use User:Antsamthompson9/Elmo Through the Years as the code to start the page). Then you can bring it up on Talk:Elmo (where it's really more appropriate, than here). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:50, January 10, 2012 (UTC) Elmo on Prairie's spaceship? Do the occupations Elmo tried to take on, when he on snuck onto Prairie Dawn's space ship in the early-1990s count? He technically wasn't a police officer, a farmer, and whatever else he dressed as, as Prairie said he wasn't needed in those jobs, up in space. -- Zanimum 23:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC) :This page is really meant to focus on the Elmo's World stuff, and just changing an outfit doesn't count. Elmo's World' occupational variants are different since it's "Dorothy imagining," often with multiple Elmos, so they're not Elmo pulling a Grover's Jobs or pretending to be something. It's also the kind of one-shot stuff better discussed in the sketch description on the appropriate episode page or Prairie Dawn Sketches: Miscellaneous than here. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC) ::They sound like they might be similar to what's been included in Elmo's Alternate Identities. —Scott (talk) 00:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC) :::From what Nick's saying, it sounds more like the sketch from this episode where Grover appears in the wrong outfit and guise to deal with a fire. I think we need more details, but it sounds like that, with Elmo dressing up and guessing what job he might be able to help with, not actually something akin to Professor Grover. Nick, you mention "whatever else he dressed as." Do you have the episode, or know where a clip is, or is this all from memory? If the latter, then the point becomes academic until we can verify the specifics. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC) Abby/Elmo hybrid Episode 4171 features a skit where Elmo imagines himself looking exactly like Abby. I think this would go good here, but it seems strictly for Elmo's World. Any thoughts on whether or not to add this here? - Oscarfan 01:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC) : That's honestly weird. Additionally, that skit with Prairie Dawn and Elmo in space has Elmo as a police officer, farmer. They weren't alternate identities, just occupations, like in the examples from Elmo's World. : Also, can real-world variants be included? Sesame Street Partners Japan created a cow Elmo (Press release, CowParade Tokyo) for the Cow Parade event in 2008. Seeing that its a Sesame Workshop-owned company, the work was at least semi-official. Could this appear here? -- Zanimum 18:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC) Format Most of the entries here are just a picture, name and episode. The notes section is really being used, except to say something obvious like "Elmo as a swarm of honey bees" and when there is something to say an independent page (like Elmo Goatherd Family) can be created or the information can just go on the specific episode page the variant appears in. What are peoples' thoughts on switching to a format similar to what we use on the Anything Muppets listings rather than the chart -- see Elmo Variants sandbox? It's more compact and a bit easier manage. I've grouped Elmos by role and ordered them alphabetically by name (as some appear in multiple episodes). Thoughts? -- Brad D. (talk) 21:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC) :I think the gallery makes more sense. — Scott (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC) ::What's been created here looks good to me. I would vote to adopt this style in place of what's here now. — Scott (talk) 21:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC) :::I agree (though I don't know if "Rainbow sitter Elmo" or "Moon dancer Elmo" or really variants at all, but it doesn't hurt to group them all, I suppose, without trying to get into semantics, which could easily become messy). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC) ::::Yeah some aren't big variants - some are new puppets (mainly the animals), some are the Elmo puppet with accessories (such as Elmo's parents, the construction worker or the goathearders), some are just Elmos in clothing (like the apple picker or biker), and some are a plain old regular Elmo(s) doing something (like riding a rollercoaster or ringing a bell). Basically I took all the things Dorothy imagines Elmo as (or doing) from the episode guides. If we want to better define what constitutes a variant we can but there will probably be an exception or two to whatever rule we come up with so it might just be easier to just document them all regardless of how trivial the change the fish imagines. I think grouping them by "animal", "sports", etc. helps group the puppet changes from the role changes. -- Brad D. (talk) 22:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC) :::::Yeah, I definitely like that, and we can probably always subdivide further if we need to make such distinctions. Good work, Brad! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC) Elmo as Animals There are a bunch of Elmo animals on this page that aren't on Impersonations of Animals. I don't know if we want to copy them all, or just add a note on that page linking back here. What do folks think? -- Danny (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC) :I'd say a linkback. It's possibly picayune of me, but I think there's a difference between a character dressing as an animal and a fantasy sequence of that character as an animal. That's just me, maybe. Frankly, Telly Fish doesn't quite fit either, but it's too oddball and fun to take out. TO my mind, these don't count in the same way. A screengrab of Elmo dressing as the Big Bad Wolf in attachable ears and nozzle, that counts. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC) ::If that's what we're considering Impersonations, we should really take Telly as a fish out for consistency. After all, he'll still be there in the Baby Bear as mermaid/fish entry. -- Peter (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC) :::That's the thing, then, is Baby Bear as merbear an impersonation, or a fantasy? Though it at least has the potential of being an impersonation, he could just slip on the fin. Telly can't suddenly become a disembodied head with scales. Scott and I had a bit of discussion on that re the Peter and the Wolf animals, but since Telly takes off his bill at one point, it seemed like a grey enough area. I suppose we could always retitle the page, but in general, there's more instances of characters impersonating animals than *becoming* animals, and those are generally more fun, visually. Plus most of the major characters, telly as an exception so far, have their own Alternate Identities pages, and the rest probably will once we get enough. Those pages do blur the lines between impersonations and alter-egos, but the terminology is intentionally vague, so I'm fine with that. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC) ::::I think the issue is just that we already have the Elmo animals on another page, and we don't have Telly/Baby Bear anywhere else. -- Danny (talk) 20:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC) :::::Yeah. Consistency is good, but a single exception doesn't hurt in this case. I opposed Fozzie as The Cowardly Lion from The Muppets' Wizard of Oz as both not being an impersonation and also the fact that he had a page, but Fozzie as the Cowardly lion in The Muppets Go to the Movies? That fits. I don't think the fantasy animals are that prevalent anyway, outside of Dorothy's mind. And I like the fact that these span multiple shows, and as Danny noted, a lot of them are animals already. One I need to add is Thidwick the Big-Hearted Moose as the Birthday Bird. Actually, I'd also left of Sprocket's Impersonations, at least four of which were animals, but included a link, just as we have to the Miss Piggy/Kermits, which are animal impersonations of a sort, but would overwhelm the concept. Yeah, I take animal impersonation pretty seriously. I do not suffer amateur echidna imitations lightly. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::Can we at least change the text to "Baby Bear as a mer-bear and Telly as a fish"? Because, really, the dual picture bothers me more than anything. We don't have Elmo as an Elephant AND Natalie Portman as an elephant. -- Peter (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC) :::::::I agree with that. Yank out whichever one you wish. I'd emphasize the Baby Bear one, since, not having seen the skit, it looks like it could conceivably be an impersonation. In all the other sections, we only list group impersonations of the same/similar animal type once. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC) Let's ask a baby! This page is terrific! I love it. To give it a little order, I'm going to alphabetize the entries based on the episode subject. Is that cool? -- Danny Toughpigs 14:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :Also, now that we have this page, do we need to have links for each of the animals? Is anybody going to actually make a separate "Elmo Peacock" page? -- D. Toughpigs 14:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC) ::I think it depends. Now that Brad bravely created this page, it is easier to see which examples could use a seperate page. I just created Elmo Goatherd Family, since it's not one Elmo variant but three, a specific spoof ("Sound of Music"), and a Muppet Band (and Elmo Elvis could be fun too). But a lot of the others, yeah, there's not much to say about them apart from the fact that they're Elmo as animals, or some like Elmo Cyclist, are really just Elmo doing something, no character difference. On the other hand, I'm seriously thinking of creating a page for Newspaper Customer Elmo, for all that it's a brief appearance, since Dorothy's imaginings that posit a multi-Elmo world are always cool, he has eyelids, and in general resembles a sort of middle-aged middle-class vision of Elmo. But anyway, go ahead and dewikify. If I or anyone else does create pages for these characters, we can Wikify them then, just as we do with a lot of other pages. --Andrew, Aleal 15:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :::Ditto for episodes. Are we going to have an EW episode guide? I've got most of them listed on the Elmo's World page. -- Scott Scarecroe 15:05, 25 March 2006 (UTC) ::::I think an episode guide would be really handy. Even if the format is consistent and just changes according to themes, details specific appearances, like Super Grover and Super Grover's Mommy from "Families", would be worth including. Plus, as insane as it may sound, with an episode guide, one could finally fully document which episodes have Mr. Noodle, Mr. Noodle's brother Mr. Noodle, the pair of them, or if any actually feature Mr. Noodle's sister Ms. Noodle. The main problem with creating an episode guide just yet is we don't have any dates for most of these. --Andrew, Aleal 15:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :::::You talked me into it: Category:Elmo's World Episodes. We should probably come up with some kind of format to follow for each page. I don't have an episode to look at right now though. -- Scott Scarecroe 15:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::I don't think every variant needs their own article. I mean how much is there to say about Juggler Elmo or Newspaper Boy Elmo? The articles on them would just end up being (at most) the picture, the episode title, and maybe a short note or two -- all of that can go on the chart here rather than create 100 little stubs. However some Elmos here do warrant their own pages; as already shown with The Three Elmos, Elmo Angler Fish and Elmo Goatherd Family. If people have something to say about a variant they can create a page on them, but I don't think we need to force every entry on this chart to be doubled with their own article too. I took out most of the nonexistent wiki links to the specific characters. It cleans it up and gets rid of all the "red"; plus it might prevent people from just creating a page that mirrors the listed information here, with nothing more really to say. However if someone has more to say on one of these Elmos, then by all means, create a page and add the link back in. Wow we have over 25 of these, and I know there's more out there. Also I can't wait to see the Elmo's World episode guide grow too. -- BradFraggle 19:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC) ::::::::Maybe I'm nuts, but I just created Newspaper Customer Elmo. Not the longest page, but more than a stub (and I created it mainly because I'm debating whether or not to include the image on Brad's Aged Characters page). I just pasted the text into this page, and previewed, and it looks horrible that way. So that's probably the biggest way of telling whether or not a seperate page is worth creating. If the most that can be said is "It's Elmo. He's on a bike. Yay for him!" or even "Elmo with rabbit ears and feet," that could all go here. (I'm on the fence about Doctor and Nurse Elmo; they're interesting mostly because they appear together with the three other Elmos, and the Nurse has eyelids and lashes and is thus more distinctly female than the goatherd daughters, but that seems like it could all fit in this page without messing up the layout too much. I'll play around with it later. Elmo Elvis is still a redlink, but he's a specific parody, and even if the article is short, I think Parody Muppets are worth creating pages for, just because there's already a category for them and it's pretty cool to compare them, just like we have short pages for some of the states and celebrities, but it's nice to see the Muppet connection. --Andrew, Aleal 19:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :::::::::Yup, I just put in everything I could possibly find to say about Elmo Nurse and Doctor, outside of redundant comments like "Elmo doctor wears glasses" (while the eyelids may not leap out, and I think it's useful to link to now that we have Muppets Who Grow Eyelids), and it all just barely fits without stretching the frame. In the unlikely event that someone adds sudden new insight about them, or the slightly more likely possibility that a Doctor Elmo or Nurse Elmo appear again and do something interesting, they get their own spin-off page. Sort of the Elmo Loves Chachi standard. How's that sound? --Andrew, Aleal 20:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)